I liked this very much (your stylistic and scientific narrative, I mean); I’d be interested to know what you think about Nagel’s ‘Eau de Citron Noir’ and its construction - which I came to appreciate even more than ‘Orange Verte’, and now seems to me the most accomplished cologne in the Hermès range.
When I first smelled E’OV years ago, my initial impression was it reminded me of Bvlgari’s Parfumee Eau The Verte. I liked it and it’s honestly nicer than Bvlgari’s much later offering. I can see where “maybe” JC Ellena could’ve used this one as inspiration towards his creation? Probably not though. The citrus of E’OV is really beautiful. I never realized spearmint was a part of it.
I don't personally see the connection. The Bulgari is much more focused on bergamot whereas bitter orange is important to the Hermès and the dry down of the Bulgari has coumarin and beeswax, notably. I think if you smelt side by side in a department store you would change your mind.
I know that also Dominique Ropion thinks that Eau d’Orange Vert is a masterpiece. Do you think it’s better than Chanel’s Cologne? Is it the best cologne ever?
Chanel's cologne is great, top notch materials but otherwise the standard cologne in terms of the accord. While Eau d'Orange Verte is not the first to use spearmint nor the first to feature it prominently (e.g. Fath Green Water), it does have signature and I would say a bit more playful than Chanel's.
I love a Cologne in the morning and I have done for very many years. It's one of my favourite things in life. I like mine crisp and clear and uncluttered, without obvious musk or woody bases, although I expect that they are there. I don't care that they don't last. They wouldn't be what they are if they did! They are equally lovely after a bath in the evening. At any time of day in fact. Thank you for reminding me of Eau d'Orange Vert. I'll track it down.
I have always loved this one, but never realized the green is from spearmint, which I thought I hated in fragrances. Thanks for broadening my horizons!
Because of the presence of other green notes like the petitgrain, it is somewhat more integrated in the fragrance and spearmint is less stereotypically "minty" than peppermint.
Then it is settled with respect to Choc. I agree that Cristalle is an improvement. I even find the new (i haven't smelled the most recent one, so the second-to-last) version to be better than the original. I have both. To paraphrase LT, weight loss in itself isn't bad - you can chop of a leg and lose 10 pounds, and that would be bad, but if you keep all of the most important parts you mostly see improvement. I find that the weight loss in the new(er) Cristalle makes the structure more clear, more precise, more angular. As for the importance of carrot seed in Diorella, what exactly is it's relation to the signature musty, unwashed top note that i don't find very challenging, but some go as far as to call it soiled underwear? The first word that comes to mind with respect to this accord is "blunt", as opposed to Cristalle's angular (sharp) which is why i find comparing the two particularly apt.
It seems then that I have incorrectly deduced - from some of the Ellena-Roudnitska stories from JCE's books and interviews, and smelling perfumes that supposedly use carrot seed prominently - that it is somehow key to this Diorella signature. What i smelled in the new Orange Verte is the exact same fatty, musty, woody, unwashed, blunt note. I did not compare side by side, but from isolation the similarity seemed basically 100%.
Not to beat a dead horse, but a quick google search seems to suggest that what I perceive is perhaps a lower quality of carrot seed oil. The LMR one you mentioned is supposedly devoid of some of the heavier facets of carrot seed, while a cheap one from India is described as earthy and muddy. The word "muddy" is especially fitting for what I am trying to describe, although the best I was able to think of was "blunt-unwashed".
Coincidentally, I've just yesterday commented on LT's Creed post mentioning how JCE took inspiration from his mentor's work for his rendition of Orange Verte. The other two I haven't tried, so I'm curious if the carrot seed note of Diorella is a JCE idea or was it in the original? As I remember there was a fragrance composed by Caron that was a straight Diorella dupe. Choc de Cardin, was it?
We have to be careful with claiming inspiration. I have put together accords myself that unintentionally and without my knowledge resembled something on the market, which I would discover myself later. Of course copying and inspiration happens all the time, but it is not always the case. Now, Choc de Cardin is a fruity chypre but it is a very original fragrance sufficiently apart from Diorella. Moreover, use of carrot seed was not something that really impressed me, a very good quality like the carrot heart from LMR is incredibly fruity and makes perfect sense in an orris or fruity accord.
Yes, yes of course. But Ellena himself stated that he was blown away by Diorella when it came out. As I remember, he was working with another perfumer at the time, competing for the same brief as Diorella and wanted to see what the perfume that had defeated them was, and - in his words - thought "sh*t, this is good". He stated that he immediately used his new toy, GCMS, but only later learned that the "secret" is mostly carrot. As for Choc, maybe i remember wrong, I only remember clearly that I've smelled something dangerously close to Diorella and googled the perfumer only to find Caron.
If you want to know a fragrance with some genuinely surprising materials and doses (in that you'd never believe the formula when smelling it), it would be Ofrésia by Giacobetti.
I will try this fragrance, but I fear that even if it made sense with the formula, I don't havr the knowledge you have - I am only a humble student. And I have apparently fumbled my previous reply and left it as a comment instead... i am new to the Substack app.
With Choc I know you are 100% wrong because I know the formulation. As for Ellena I am aware of the story, and while I love Diorella (though Cristalle is an improvement) the carrot is hardly a revelation the way Ellena paints it for dramatic effect.
Eau d'Orange Verte has always been a favorite of mine. The lotion is great, too. Thank you for highlighting this gem.
Thanks for this. Will try!
I liked this very much (your stylistic and scientific narrative, I mean); I’d be interested to know what you think about Nagel’s ‘Eau de Citron Noir’ and its construction - which I came to appreciate even more than ‘Orange Verte’, and now seems to me the most accomplished cologne in the Hermès range.
I can do a very in-depth article, I know it well. I'll try this week.
great, thank you!
When I first smelled E’OV years ago, my initial impression was it reminded me of Bvlgari’s Parfumee Eau The Verte. I liked it and it’s honestly nicer than Bvlgari’s much later offering. I can see where “maybe” JC Ellena could’ve used this one as inspiration towards his creation? Probably not though. The citrus of E’OV is really beautiful. I never realized spearmint was a part of it.
I don't personally see the connection. The Bulgari is much more focused on bergamot whereas bitter orange is important to the Hermès and the dry down of the Bulgari has coumarin and beeswax, notably. I think if you smelt side by side in a department store you would change your mind.
Most likely.
I know that also Dominique Ropion thinks that Eau d’Orange Vert is a masterpiece. Do you think it’s better than Chanel’s Cologne? Is it the best cologne ever?
Chanel's cologne is great, top notch materials but otherwise the standard cologne in terms of the accord. While Eau d'Orange Verte is not the first to use spearmint nor the first to feature it prominently (e.g. Fath Green Water), it does have signature and I would say a bit more playful than Chanel's.
I love a Cologne in the morning and I have done for very many years. It's one of my favourite things in life. I like mine crisp and clear and uncluttered, without obvious musk or woody bases, although I expect that they are there. I don't care that they don't last. They wouldn't be what they are if they did! They are equally lovely after a bath in the evening. At any time of day in fact. Thank you for reminding me of Eau d'Orange Vert. I'll track it down.
I have always loved this one, but never realized the green is from spearmint, which I thought I hated in fragrances. Thanks for broadening my horizons!
Because of the presence of other green notes like the petitgrain, it is somewhat more integrated in the fragrance and spearmint is less stereotypically "minty" than peppermint.
Ah, very illuminating. I had not thought of petitgrain as green, which of course makes perfect sense. The danger of categorizing, at least for me.
While it has many facets, you cannot recreate a realistic petitgrain without green pyrazines, and it shares some with galbanum even.
Did not know about pyrazines at all (very novice perfumer). I see that even Jamie Frater doesn't stock any green ones, as far as I can tell.
Then it is settled with respect to Choc. I agree that Cristalle is an improvement. I even find the new (i haven't smelled the most recent one, so the second-to-last) version to be better than the original. I have both. To paraphrase LT, weight loss in itself isn't bad - you can chop of a leg and lose 10 pounds, and that would be bad, but if you keep all of the most important parts you mostly see improvement. I find that the weight loss in the new(er) Cristalle makes the structure more clear, more precise, more angular. As for the importance of carrot seed in Diorella, what exactly is it's relation to the signature musty, unwashed top note that i don't find very challenging, but some go as far as to call it soiled underwear? The first word that comes to mind with respect to this accord is "blunt", as opposed to Cristalle's angular (sharp) which is why i find comparing the two particularly apt.
The unwashed part is quite simply the animalic materials in Diorella, as was customary for the time, you needed some funk in every formula.
It seems then that I have incorrectly deduced - from some of the Ellena-Roudnitska stories from JCE's books and interviews, and smelling perfumes that supposedly use carrot seed prominently - that it is somehow key to this Diorella signature. What i smelled in the new Orange Verte is the exact same fatty, musty, woody, unwashed, blunt note. I did not compare side by side, but from isolation the similarity seemed basically 100%.
Not to beat a dead horse, but a quick google search seems to suggest that what I perceive is perhaps a lower quality of carrot seed oil. The LMR one you mentioned is supposedly devoid of some of the heavier facets of carrot seed, while a cheap one from India is described as earthy and muddy. The word "muddy" is especially fitting for what I am trying to describe, although the best I was able to think of was "blunt-unwashed".
Coincidentally, I've just yesterday commented on LT's Creed post mentioning how JCE took inspiration from his mentor's work for his rendition of Orange Verte. The other two I haven't tried, so I'm curious if the carrot seed note of Diorella is a JCE idea or was it in the original? As I remember there was a fragrance composed by Caron that was a straight Diorella dupe. Choc de Cardin, was it?
We have to be careful with claiming inspiration. I have put together accords myself that unintentionally and without my knowledge resembled something on the market, which I would discover myself later. Of course copying and inspiration happens all the time, but it is not always the case. Now, Choc de Cardin is a fruity chypre but it is a very original fragrance sufficiently apart from Diorella. Moreover, use of carrot seed was not something that really impressed me, a very good quality like the carrot heart from LMR is incredibly fruity and makes perfect sense in an orris or fruity accord.
Yes, yes of course. But Ellena himself stated that he was blown away by Diorella when it came out. As I remember, he was working with another perfumer at the time, competing for the same brief as Diorella and wanted to see what the perfume that had defeated them was, and - in his words - thought "sh*t, this is good". He stated that he immediately used his new toy, GCMS, but only later learned that the "secret" is mostly carrot. As for Choc, maybe i remember wrong, I only remember clearly that I've smelled something dangerously close to Diorella and googled the perfumer only to find Caron.
If you want to know a fragrance with some genuinely surprising materials and doses (in that you'd never believe the formula when smelling it), it would be Ofrésia by Giacobetti.
Oh please tell more about Ofresia. Thank you!😊
I will try this fragrance, but I fear that even if it made sense with the formula, I don't havr the knowledge you have - I am only a humble student. And I have apparently fumbled my previous reply and left it as a comment instead... i am new to the Substack app.
With Choc I know you are 100% wrong because I know the formulation. As for Ellena I am aware of the story, and while I love Diorella (though Cristalle is an improvement) the carrot is hardly a revelation the way Ellena paints it for dramatic effect.